How to Find Your Ikigai and Build a Purpose-Driven Life with Nick Kemp

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Miyako Kamiya (1:09): I always like to refer to the definition by Japan's research pioneer, Miyako Kamiya, and she was this amazing woman. And she said you have your ikigai sources, and that could be relationships, hobbies, your work, small joys. And then you have ikigai kan, where kan is feeling awareness perception. So ikigai is ultimately something you sense or feel. So it's really what makes your life feel worth living.

Kendra Chapman (1:43): Welcome back to the Go Slow to Go Fast lifestyle podcast. I'm Kendra Chapman, your host, and this is a space for busy professionals, working parents, high achievers who want practical encouragement, simple reminders, and real life strategies for slowing down. Around here, we talk about slow living, avoiding burnout, building sustainable success, and rediscovering purpose no matter what season of life you're in so you can enjoy life more fully and still move forward when it matters most. Today's conversation is an extra special one because it harkens back to why I started this podcast. To explore ways to find more icky guy, more meaning, more purpose, more of that feeling that life is truly worth living.

Kendra Chapman (2:36): And in this episode, I dive into a deeper conversation with someone who has been studying this and teaching it long before it became a trend. Today, I'm joined by Nicholas Kemp. Nick is a keynote speaker, coach, and the author of Ikigai Khan, Feel a Life Worth Living, Rolefulness, and his newest book, A Year of Ikigai. He's also the founder of Ikigai Tribe, which offers Ikigai coach certification and coaching programs for people who want to bring more meaning and purpose into their lives. As a diploma qualified positive psychology coach, Nick helps other coaches guide people towards discovering meaning through the Japanese lens of ikigai.

Kendra Chapman (3:28): So if you've ever wondered whether purpose is something that you find or something you cultivate slowly over time, this conversation is definitely for you. Let's dive in.

Unknown Speaker (3:41): All

Unknown Speaker (3:42): right. Well, Nick, I just wanna say thank you for agreeing to sit down with me today and welcome to the Go Slow to Go Fast Show.

Unknown Speaker (3:49): Thank you for having me, Kendra. It's always good to chat to someone in a different part of the world. So thank you.

Kendra Chapman (3:56): It's early morning for you and it's afternoon for me. I appreciate you being flexible with your schedule. So as you jump into this conversation with me, before we get into your story, do you mind just sharing with listeners and viewers a little bit about how you're going slow to go fast these days?

Miyako Kamiya (4:14): Sure. I think there's two things. You can affirm and appreciate what's good in your life now, which can include the small joys or relationships and really appreciate them. And then also be intentional about your decisions, what you want to do. So you're clearly thinking about, I guess, what matters to you.

Miyako Kamiya (4:35): So I think that's how I do it. And for me it includes things like taking time to cuddle my cat or see if my wife, when she goes to work and just appreciating those small moments. And then if it's decision making, yeah, really taking time with it and not rushing. So things like that.

Kendra Chapman (4:55): It sounds very intentional that you are trying to really soak up those small moments.

Miyako Kamiya (5:02): Well, that's really related to probably what we'll talk about today.

Kendra Chapman (5:06): Mhmm. Yes. Yeah. So you have a new book about icky guy, but and I definitely wanna dive into that a little bit more. But it sounds like you discovered I was diving into your podcast episodes for a little bit just to do my research for the show today.

Kendra Chapman (5:23): And it sounds like that you discovered the word around 1998. And can you kind of walk us through, you know, your experience of, you know, you were actually living in Japan, I think at the time.

Miyako Kamiya (5:36): Yes. Well, thank you for listening to my podcast. So I'd returned to Japan after a year of being a trainee chef. So that was in 'ninety five and then ended 'ninety six. And then I returned to teach English and being young and ambitious, I remember I think probably trying to shove my Japanese to a coworker on a lunch break and she casually asked, Oh, and I'm like, what's and she left me with this kind of amazing explanation.

Miyako Kamiya (6:09): I remember thinking, wow, you have one word to encapsulate all that. So I was quite intrigued by the word. And then I went back to the teacher's room, this was on the first day of work and I asked all these foreign teachers like, have you heard this word icky guy? They were saying no. And then the next day I went back in thinking I should continue this conversation with my coworker and she'd been transferred.

Miyako Kamiya (6:33): And I kind of remember the disappointment thinking, can't continue this conversation on this fascinating word. And then oddly after that, I really didn't hear the word used. Can't really remember hearing the word used. So that was a bit strange, but there's another word called yaddigai. Yaddu is the verb to do.

Miyako Kamiya (6:53): So something worth doing. And I'd hear that almost every week, like yarigai gaaru, like that's worth doing. So that was, yeah, that's how I stumbled upon the word.

Kendra Chapman (7:03): And it's interesting, you know, I think I had just been coming back from being away teaching English in another country around that that time frame as well. And there's just so many words in other cultures that encapsulate so many ideas that sometimes it can get lost in translation. But, you know, I think there's definitely been some misconceptions about ikigai. And I myself have been, you know, one of those who have just kind of tried to encapsulate the meaning into, you know, the Venn diagram that many Westerners tend to use when they're trying to explain the concept. So can you just kind of walk us through what the actual meaning is?

Unknown Speaker (7:43): And then we can get into the misconceptions and, you know, kind of how that shows up in some places.

Miyako Kamiya (7:49): The word ikigai is a compound of the verb ikiru, which means to live, to exist. And then guy really represents value worth even some form of credit or result. So it really means the value you draw from life. And we're talking about your life in a daily sense. We're not talking about it in some sort of grand psychological, your whole life as one idea.

Miyako Kamiya (8:19): So it's often better framed as the question, what makes your life worth living or really what makes your life feel worth living? And I always like to refer to definition by Japan's research pioneer, Miyako Kamiya, and she was this amazing woman. And she said you have your ikigai sources and that could be relationships, hobbies, your work, small joys. And then you have ikigai kan where kan is feeling awareness perception. So ikigai is ultimately something you sense or feel.

Miyako Kamiya (8:51): So it's really what makes your life feel worth living.

Kendra Chapman (8:54): Yeah. I mean, I think purpose is definitely a piece of it, but it's not the, you know, purpose for living. It's not the essential, like, what gets you up in the morning, which is the way sometimes it's been defined, I guess, in the past. So that's interesting that there's just so many components of it. How does it show up in Japanese culture since you've had that conversation, in the, you know, late nineties?

Unknown Speaker (9:23): How have you seen it show up in other ways in the culture that you've observed?

Miyako Kamiya (9:27): So this is where it's quite interesting. But for most Japanese, ikigai is just another word in their lexicon of amazing words. So they don't really see it as a special word. And ikigai is not something they really talk about that often. So it's subjective and personal, but they might use it or they do use it in casual conversation.

Miyako Kamiya (9:50): On the other side, there's all this research on the concept. So there's, for example, there's a psychometric tool called the Ikigai nine that Japanese made as an alternative to all the well-being measurement tools that were, they were using thinking we need to develop a tool based on Japanese well-being. And if you go to research websites, you'll find quite a lot of papers on ihigai. So it's become a tool to measure Japan's or the well-being of Japanese. And now it's extended beyond that to include just so many papers related to things like flow, well-being, purpose, both in Japanese and in English.

Miyako Kamiya (10:33): One scale relates it to, for example, self esteem. One must have self esteem in order to kind of feel the kigai. Then that leads to not a purpose in life, but purpose in life. So feeling purpose in life, which leads to this idea of personal energy. Once you have this sense of purpose in life, you're likely to do something.

Miyako Kamiya (10:55): And so you can almost see the eking guy of other people in the way they use their energy. And then that leads them to life satisfaction. So Ikigai is more about life satisfaction rather than happiness, but actually Sony did a large scale survey last year where they interviewed 1,400 Japanese across all age groups and had eventually a top 10 for each decade and then a general top 10. And things such as eating delicious food or traveling on hot spring baths came into like the top three. So very subjective and personal and almost for every Japanese their ichigai was unique.

Unknown Speaker (11:36): And that would make sense.

Miyako Kamiya (11:39): And it's never the grand thing of some business goal or it's always something smaller.

Unknown Speaker (11:46): It's not like it's a quest that you must take on as a hero's journey to find your icky guy. Really just, you know, just, you know, thinking about what you're, you know, what you find it to be.

Miyako Kamiya (12:01): Yeah. If it is on a more intentional, purposeful side, I mean, it can be someone's, I mean, often it's your role. So it could be your role as a parent, a partner or your professional role. So if it is your, let's say your professional role and you're fairly ambitious, it's really like once you've found that role, life becomes worth living. So it's really the beginning of a life worth living.

Miyako Kamiya (12:25): Once you think, oh, this is a source of yikigo for this role. Even this role I have now, I guess as, we both have the role of, let's say podcaster, right? And it comes with all these challenges. We've got to prepare, we've got to record, it's got to be edited, we've got to promote it. But we probably find a lot of ikigai in the conversation, looking forward to the conversation, sharing it.

Miyako Kamiya (12:50): And so it's a purpose driven role that gives us this feeling of sense of purpose, life satisfaction, connection. And yeah, so it's very subjective. It can be quite a significant source in your life as well as small joys. And it could be something highly ambitious as well, depending on the person.

Kendra Chapman (13:12): So it could be as general as, because I was I was watching, as we do as podcasters, I was watching another podcast. I was listening to somebody explain, I think, dharma as kind of like life purpose. And I was thinking, is there any alignment to icky guy and dharma? Because this woman was explaining to the host about, you know, if one should be an artist in their profession, but they because of pressures, you know, from family or whatever, they choose to be an accountant instead, then they're not they're not living their dharma. And so then they're not their full they're not meeting their full potential or purpose or whatever, what have you.

Kendra Chapman (13:56): And so and she explained about a, you know, particular woman who did eventually after being an accountant for thirty years almost quit her job and became an artist and was, like, so happy. So I you know, it's interesting. It's I see alignment there, but I think, you know, your ikigai could change too. Right?

Miyako Kamiya (14:14): It does. And you have many, so you have many sources of ikigai that they change. I would say that your strongest sources are role related. So often profession, again, some sort of family role. And then yeah, you change jobs, children leave home.

Miyako Kamiya (14:33): A lot of people fall in love and then fall out of love and they find someone else. I mean, there are other words, there's a word called kokoro zashi, which might articulate finding that grand purpose or one vision that you feel compelled to pursue. And actually Japanese use this word in business and Japan's biggest business school has something called a kokoro zashi, this life defining goal where you want to change society and you want to have an impact. But yeah, I mean, I would say if you are the art, for whatever reason you have this proclivity to expressing yourself through art and it's natural to you, it's almost like a role. And if you don't pursue it and fulfill it, you're probably going to be, yeah, not the person you want to be and life will be unfulfilling.

Miyako Kamiya (15:23): So that can happen too. But then I would say once you become the artist, that's where your life's begun. You're finally doing it. So it doesn't end. It's sort of life begins once you embrace, oh, I am an artist and I'll put aside what society's demanded of me and what my parents demanded of me to be an accountant or whatever.

Miyako Kamiya (15:42): And I'll pursue what's natural to me. And then as the artist, you're doing painting or whatever it is, and you're in flow doing that work and you're improving doing that work, that's when you feel like you got. So you'd feel like you got from a sense of progress or you'd feel it more intensely in this flow state. And so then being an artist becomes this source of ikigai and it also gives you identity, which is also, I guess, very important.

Kendra Chapman (16:09): And you've lived in different countries in your lifetime. So have you seen major differences in Western versus Eastern cultures as far as purpose and identity? Or have you seen more patterns that are similar?

Miyako Kamiya (16:24): I think living in Japan quickly understood well, Japanese do small things or all things with a sense of purpose. And it's always a joy to go to Japan with customer service, everything's done properly. And then when I come back to Australia, it's laid back halfhearted, how you going? And it's almost like when I go to a supermarket, I am the customer interrupting coworkers talking rather than them thinking, oh, my role is to serve customers. Excuse me.

Miyako Kamiya (16:53): There is this idea of to do right and be right. And I think in Japan they want to do right in the moment. And I think in the West we have this urge to be right. We want to win conversations or kind of argue our point where Japanese will avoid that. And then when it's work, and this is just a generalisation, Japanese will do right as a way of conveying themselves.

Miyako Kamiya (17:22): That's sort of one difference. And then Japanese do have this ability to enjoy and appreciate smaller things. I remember I'd go to a cafe and there'd be like almost what looked like a sliver of cheesecake thinking, you know, oh gee, that's small thinking as I'm eating it, I'd probably want a second piece. Whereas Japanese would really savor and really go, oh, this cheesecake is so delicious. And they're really appreciating it.

Miyako Kamiya (17:46): And then of course, when I come home, we have these massive sizes of cheesecake that you kind of eat and then you end up feeling almost sick. So Japanese really appreciate the, I guess the sensory pleasure of something. So they have this kind of awareness of small things, have practices before and after eating a meal to say, I'm about to receive and like I've eaten and itaraku is this verb to receive. So you're acknowledging you're receiving food, but you're also acknowledging on a deeper level, something's died to sustain me, whether it's an animal or some sort of plant life. And so they say that every day.

Miyako Kamiya (18:36): So their cultural language, these cultural set expressions, I think remind them to be in the moment.

Unknown Speaker (18:46): So you would say based on your observations of living in the Japanese culture, this is not like necessarily a spiritual or religious practice. This is something they do in their culture on a regular basis. Like everybody says those things before and after eating.

Miyako Kamiya (19:02): It is interesting because when you live in Japan, you get to hear it so often you begin to think the kind of meaningless, they just say them all the time, but then you realize, oh no, that's not the case. It's good parents will teach their kids to say these things. And then in the workplace they have set greetings too. So if we were working together and then I was leaving work before you, I would say like, I'm leaving before you. I'm acknowledging that.

Miyako Kamiya (19:29): And then you would reply with like, oh, it's kind of summer like you, which really means kind of weird, but it's the verb for tired. So you sort of saying, like you must be tired Nick, as in, you're not really saying that, but you're acknowledging that I've worked today and I've contributed. And it kind of eliminates having to think about what do I say when I come in or leave work? And it can be like a really good reset if there's a little bit of tension with coworkers, you don't ignore each other. You just say the standard said expressions and then that creates this harmony.

Miyako Kamiya (20:02): So that's another idea. I think with this group mentality in Japan, they're seeking harmony in the West with this individual focus. We're not seeking conflict, but we're wanting to express ourselves and that often results in some form of different opinion, different ideas, which will then lead, could lead to conflict.

Kendra Chapman (20:24): That's interesting. Just the fact, you know, the acknowledgement.

Miyako Kamiya (20:28): Yeah. But that also means Japanese do have to suppress their individuality, which can be very personally taxing for them. So it's sort of, I always think a combination of both would be ideal.

Kendra Chapman (20:40): Right. To have those routines in the work environment every day to kind of do a reset would be nice. I mean, I think, you know, are definitely some work environments that have that built in intentionally, but not every work environment does. So that would be nice if it was part of our culture. Interesting.

Kendra Chapman (21:00): I mean, I've been in seven different school districts in my career, and I think many people listening and watching have probably had a lot of transitions and, you know, the workplaces that are very toxic and versus the ones that are productive and have their structures that create that harmony. You can tell the difference for sure. So it's nice to hear that, you know, that there, that countries do it differently and have more of an expectation for that. But yeah, there are given there's give and take, you know, if you're all doing the same thing, then yes, you do lose that individual expression.

Miyako Kamiya (21:33): Yeah. And to be, I mean, to be honest, Japan does have a pretty, some of their companies have a pretty bad reputation for overworking their employees that there's even a word for work from, or death from overwork. So it's, yeah, Japan's got its problems. It's got a lot of unique problems, but their culture as a whole, I tend to say like, oh, the beauty and fascination of Japan is like, everything's different. And then I'll then say the trouble of, you know, sometimes the trouble of living in Japan is like, everything is different and you've got to be willing to kind of be open and adapt and embrace all these differences or yeah, you'll kind of struggle.

Miyako Kamiya (22:15): So yeah, it's a good thing to travel and live in different cultures. It opens up a world of learning and possibility. Yes.

Kendra Chapman (22:25): Like you said, your coworker was able to enlighten you on the concept of Ichigoi just by having a conversation and asking you what yours was.

Miyako Kamiya (22:34): Yeah. And twenty years later, I have a

Unknown Speaker (22:36): business That's for right. Yes.

Unknown Speaker (22:40): You never know.

Unknown Speaker (22:41): Yeah. So tell us a little bit about the book and or the podcast, whichever you'd like to start with and kind of your, your process around creating the platform.

Miyako Kamiya (22:51): Sure. I mean, podcast was this passion project really to share an authentic perspective of ikigai. You know, the Venn diagram and oh, it's a word from Okinawa and it's the secret, it's a Japanese secret to happiness and all these romantic notions. And I remember seeing the Venn diagram thinking, I remember that word and it definitely can't be that. And then hearing, oh, all these people think it's from Okinawa and it's this key to happiness and all these romantic ideas.

Miyako Kamiya (23:19): So that kind of inspired me to do the podcast. I thought, well, if I interview English speakers, Japanese English speakers, especially these researchers, it presents, you know, present a key guy with evidence. And then I thought, once I started the podcast, I thought I should interview artists and everyday Japanese. And then even foreign foreigners who were researching the concept. So it started as a passion project and then that led to me really thinking about writing a book and I'd self published a book and then wrote another book, but then a publisher approached me about writing a book and I thought, okay, that's a unique opportunity.

Miyako Kamiya (24:00): And, it's, yeah, it's just been released. So that was, it's interesting that the role of, I guess, trying to be this bridge or some almost like unofficial ambassador of this concept for Japan's led to these goals. Like I guess in a way writing a book was a goal when I'd normally never have didn't like writing at school. I struggled at school. So the idea of writing a book was never on my radar, but once I came into my life and once I started to take it really seriously, that was like a logical next step.

Miyako Kamiya (24:35): So yeah, the new books, A Year of Ikigai and the publisher wanted one of those books where you have like a daily read and it was very challenging to try and convey Ikigai three sixty five different ways. I asked 50 Japanese to contribute their ikigai. So that was helpful. Yeah, it's really challenging to try and take a very deep cultural complex. What's an example?

Miyako Kamiya (25:08): So there's a word for example, or actually there's other words that include the suffix -gae. So one would be manabi guy. Manabi is the verb to learn. So what's worth learning. And so I only had like 80 words to convey like, and then many interesting words that we don't have in English, like kokoro tskai, like kokoro is your heart, mind as one entity.

Miyako Kamiya (25:34): In the West, we kind of have this idea, we think with our mind and feel with our heart. Japanese would say, well, you think and feel with both at the same time. And so this word kokoro tsukai, Tsai is the verb to use. So when you're using your mind and heart intentionally, that's probably when you feel icky guy. And then yeah, trying to convey that in 80 words was, you know, it was really challenging.

Miyako Kamiya (25:58): But the book is actually very, and it's really beautiful. The cover, the internal pages. So it almost kind of looks like an art book with all these different designs.

Unknown Speaker (26:09): Nice. And so you can use it like a daily prompt to think about your icky guy each day of the year.

Miyako Kamiya (26:18): Yes. That was the intention of the book. And that was, I guess the challenge. How do we make this short and sweet and almost have a prompt at the end?

Unknown Speaker (26:29): So do you have any kind of accompanying journal that goes along with it or any kind of companion?

Miyako Kamiya (26:37): But I do encourage the reader to journal. So that was one of the main themes was to journal as you read this book. And then I also left with essentially five or four journaling prompts. That could be the next step. Maybe I'll ask the publisher.

Unknown Speaker (26:56): Good idea.

Unknown Speaker (26:56): Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm one of those, I love thinking about ways to incorporate journaling and just kind of bring a refresh to it because, you know, as someone who likes to meditate, I may not do it more than maybe twenty one days at a time, and then I wanna do something else. So it's kind of interesting to think about icky guy for a year. I think that's going to be something I'll add to my practice for, I mean, it doesn't have to be next year.

Unknown Speaker (27:22): It can be as soon as the book is available in March in The US. So, I'll have to give you some

Miyako Kamiya (27:28): feedback Yeah. On I mean, that's, I think journaling's a great cause I never liked the idea of journaling cause you know, grammar, spelling, but I think it's like, oh, free yourself to journal. Don't worry about spelling grammar. This is for you. It's not for anyone else.

Miyako Kamiya (27:44): And then free yourself to write. And because icky guy does involve what's important to you or what you care about. It's definitely worth spending time having this internal conversation with yourself on decisions you're making or thoughts you're going through because it gives you clarity. And then once you have clarity, it's very easy to identify what to do and what not to do. But in a world of so much distraction now, and I guess so much bad news, we don't have control of most of our thoughts reacting.

Miyako Kamiya (28:16): The journaling about either having a conversation with someone or journaling is about the only time you really have control of your thoughts to the point where you're conveying what you want to say or what you think. Mostly, most of the time outside of that, we're just trying to process all the information and memories and future ideas and the current moment all at the same time.

Kendra Chapman (28:47): Yeah, absolutely. Well, I love that you've written a book and that you've put, you've laid it out across a year to make it manageable for somebody who might want to explore that concept, which, you know, it and I love that you also brought in different thought leaders who have been researching or, you know, maybe even practicing the concept, in Japan, which is that's a lovely addition to the process. I think for anybody who's definitely in the West, just to learn more from the Eastern culture of Japan.

Miyako Kamiya (29:21): Yes. And what's interesting, even Japanese researchers don't always agree on Ikigai or what Ikigai is. Part of their role is they have to define it. So you'll have different scales, you'll have different definitions and then different contexts. So a lot of Ikigai research is done where people have, it's almost post retirement stage.

Miyako Kamiya (29:42): Even the Japanese government started thinking way back in the seventies and eighties, like, well, we're going to have this aging population that's healthy, but they're all retired. What are they going to do? So they had all these initiatives, Ikigai initiatives. And more recently they actually have, they call them health and Ikigai creation advisors. And these are Japanese who themselves are of retirement age.

Miyako Kamiya (30:06): They go and get qualified to become an advisor and then they help people transition from, I guess, retirement to a new social role that becomes a source of ikigai. So even though the word's not really commonly used that often, yet it is a concept that's researched and now there are these initiatives on how can we give old a Japanese icky guy? And then other researchers will do research on university students. It's a very convenient study group with a large number, but also it gives you this perspective on the Ikigai of younger Japanese and their Ikigai is often tied to this idea of belonging and connection. And some young Japanese will say, I feel icky guy when I'm helpful, when I contribute and when my friends need me.

Miyako Kamiya (30:58): So it's also, yeah, so subjective. Very, could be someone's hobby who likes to do their hobby in their me time and not be disturbed, or it could be this feeling that you matter through contribution.

Unknown Speaker (31:12): Yeah. I I'm thinking about a Disney movie that I saw. It was called I think it's Soul. Have you seen that? I don't know if it's something that if you have small children, but it's an animation movie, but it basically talks about this, and it shows a man who basically was a musician that never made it in his profession.

Kendra Chapman (31:32): And so he became a music teacher in a school. And then he gets his big break and he gets to go be with a band and perform and, you know, and then he dies before he gets to enjoy that experience. And then it talks about a lot of different, I mean, it's very, a lot of layers, especially for children. I'm watching it with my children, but they get it because if you're not experiencing that flow of being like an artist or a musician, you know, or whatever you're meant to do and have that joyful moment of your purpose, you just kind of, you can't explain it. But when you're in that flow, you know what it is.

Kendra Chapman (32:11): So would you say that happiness and joy that a lot of people are talking about these days and purpose would definitely all be a part of ichigai, but then there are some other concepts, like you said, that are also included in that and it can change. But when you're in that flow, it's unmistakable.

Miyako Kamiya (32:29): Yeah. I mean, that the flow state, the flow experience would be like an intense iking eye experience. And yeah, when we're in flow life, it's so good. We forget a sense of time and we kind of have this awareness of what we're doing, but it feels so good. So that's, yeah, that would be one way to experience ichigai.

Miyako Kamiya (32:49): I would say like intimacy. So you can have intellectual intimacy, emotional intimacy, even musicians like this creative intimacy when you're maybe playing music with other musicians. That's kind of flow, but it's it's sort of a connection. But I think I can also come from existential growth. So when you're I mean, why do people do these incredible demanding challenges of climbing mountains or exploring the ocean or someone might get up every morning and swim in really cold water because for them it makes their life feel worth living.

Miyako Kamiya (33:27): Then maybe after they get out of the cold water and they have this rush that might be why they do it. Why do we have this desire to learn and grow and put ourselves through pressure or hardship? It's meaningful in some way. So it even can come from overcoming adversity or a challenge where you have that sense of growth or maybe a sense of personal justice. So it's as complex as life.

Miyako Kamiya (33:55): And when we feel that life is worth living, not only from joyful, happy moments or flow state moments, we might feel life, this aspect of my life is worth the struggle, even though it's challenging or painful because there's meaning. So it's also what's meaningful to you. And it's yeah, one of my favorites podcast guests and a friend now, Ken Moggie, who's a neuroscientist. He's written a book on Ikigai himself in English, the little book of Ikigai. He said Ikigai reflects life and it's a spectrum rather than a sweet spot and like life it's as complex, it has the complexity of life.

Miyako Kamiya (34:35): That's a beautiful thing because then we can feel icky guy from all these different areas, relationships. Can even like icky guy can be this sense of nostalgia. Like if, I don't know, eighties, you go into a restaurant and music from the eighties comes on and you go, oh, I love that song. And you just feel this little moment of, I've heard that song for so long. And you feel a little bit of connection or a little bit of a lift.

Miyako Kamiya (35:00): And then it goes also very much forward thinking. So it is what you have to look forward to. So I'm going back to Japan in May and it's starting to feel, it's only really less than three months now. I'm going back with my wife. So that's something we're looking forward to.

Miyako Kamiya (35:17): So yeah, it does include these temporal elements of memories, nostalgia, what's meaningful, what's good in your life now, but also what you have to look forward to. So I would sort of encourage your audience, always have something to look forward to even if it's something small. I always look forward to my morning coffee, look forward to catching up with friends, look forward to these trips, looking forward to this podcast. Why would I get up at 05:30 to do this? Most people wouldn't.

Miyako Kamiya (35:52): It's worth it. The dialogue is worth it. Connecting with you is worth it. So both will end the call hopefully more fulfilled and that life is, you know?

Kendra Chapman (36:03): Yeah. I mean, think another reason why I do podcasts is because I want to be just an encouraging voice for others that are, you know, going through something in their life that where they need connection. And it can be in a month or it could be five years from now or, you know, whenever. And I love the fact that this medium, you know, this this allows us to create something that is it provides hope and encouraging words. And just a reminder that it is the simple things.

Kendra Chapman (36:38): I agree. I look forward to coffee in the morning, but I also appreciate when I don't get the coffee in the morning because of whatever reason, because then when I do get that cup of coffee, it makes it so much better. Yeah. It's like, you've got to learn that ebb and flow and the challenging moments in our life are teaching us something too. So absolutely.

Kendra Chapman (37:02): And when something doesn't work right on my podcast, I can't get so frustrated to where I'm like, I'm not going to do it anymore. I just have to lean into it and learn something new because things change, Right? It's always changing.

Miyako Kamiya (37:14): Well, it's interesting you just said learn something new because that's actually one of the scale items of the Hingai nine. So start something or learn something new. And I mean, even the title of your podcast, it could be for this episode, it could be, you know, go slow to feel more icky guy. When we do slow down and yeah, even in the case where we don't get the coffee or we're frustrated, we can pause and think, I'm frustrated because I care about this and it's not working. So we can reframe it like that and then slow down and calm down and then work out what's, what the problem is.

Miyako Kamiya (37:52): Or as you said, if you miss coffee rather than that be an excuse to be upset or cranky, yeah. And be grateful. Like, oh, I really am lucky I've had coffee all this month or this week. I'm missing it today. I look forward to it tomorrow.

Miyako Kamiya (38:08): Yes. So yeah, move from being impulsive to appreciative, grateful, then yeah, you kind of instantly feel better and you have something to look forward to. So slowing down is a great way to bring more ichigai and general well-being and life satisfaction to your life.

Kendra Chapman (38:29): Absolutely. Yes. And you know, it's in the moment you may not always want to think about it that way, but you know, you can always reflect on it later, especially if you grab Nick's book, A Year of Ichigai. But Nick, would if someone is not feeling they're feeling disconnected from their purpose right now, burnout, overwhelmed, unsure, or just upset about what's going on in the world right now. What's one small reflective step that they can take this week or today to begin to uncover their icky guy?

Miyako Kamiya (39:00): Yeah, this is a really good question. And there could be many answers. I usually encourage people to reframe the question and think who is your Ichigoi? Who is someone you love, you care about? Who is someone who's helped you and you've never really taken the time fully thank them for all that they've done for you.

Miyako Kamiya (39:22): I wrote a gratitude letter to someone who was like my second mother and she'd been a big part of my life. And when I started to write it, it was astonishing. So she'd done so much for me. So many memories came flooding back from my childhood into my teens, into a young adult and later. And it just made me think, wow, this person has done so much for me.

Miyako Kamiya (39:44): So there, yeah, there's all these people who have helped you along the way, but there are people who if tragedy struck and they were no longer with you, it would impact your life. So if you're feeling down or blue or frustrated, think about who's important to you and spend time with them, do something for them. Thank them, grab a coffee with them. And then if you're up for it, I would also try and challenge you to journal and think, well, get all this stuff off your chest and then start to challenge your thoughts as to, okay, what's good in my life? What can I do?

Miyako Kamiya (40:20): Who can I help? If my life was different, what would I want to be doing? And that's probably like one of the key questions of a kigai, not what you want to achieve. It's like, what do you want to be doing with your life on a daily kind of context? And then just kind of be realistic because we often get trapped in destination addiction.

Miyako Kamiya (40:42): Like I'll be happy once I have all these conditions met. And of course it won't happen that way, or even if it does, and it doesn't last. We have this desire to grow, to learn. So thinking more about, yeah, what do I want to be doing and who is my he guy? And I would really think about role.

Miyako Kamiya (41:02): We have all these roles in our life. What's a role you want to give more time and care to and in the process, you're very likely to be helping someone else.

Unknown Speaker (41:12): Thank you for that.

Unknown Speaker (41:14): That's all right.

Kendra Chapman (41:14): So before I let you go, I think we're going be wrapping up here in a moment. Do you have any final thoughts that you want to make sure that listeners and viewers hear about ichigai?

Miyako Kamiya (41:25): I mean, I probably should say when you have the opportunity, if you ever meet, a Japanese person, speak to them and let go of this notion that icky guy has to be this grand thing. It's really found in the small. So I guess the key takeaway is icky guy's a spectrum. And if you can appreciate all these small things in your life, your relationships, you're going to be more fulfilled. So have this icky eye awareness.

Miyako Kamiya (41:55): And it's really interesting. I went to a professional speakers content day and we stayed at this incredible house, multimillion dollar house. And we were looked after and I saw very few people thank the staff and I thought, wow. I mean, it just sort of was natural for me to thank them. And then on reflection I thought, oh, was I the only one who thanked them?

Miyako Kamiya (42:22): So we can get caught up in life where we don't even thank people who look after us. So yeah, being this icky guy awareness like, oh, this team did a great job. They great food, great service. Every time I needed something they essentially gave it to me. And yeah, they felt appreciated when I thanked them.

Miyako Kamiya (42:43): And this is kind of the way we're headed. Like the world is headed to this disconnect with QR codes in restaurants and you go into restaurants now. You don't even have to talk to staff to order to, you don't even have to thank them. So I would, yeah. I suspect, be aware of that and express gratitude to people.

Miyako Kamiya (43:08): They feel icky guy, then you feel icky guy.

Kendra Chapman (43:10): Yes. I would be very, I would probably be very sad if I went into a restaurant and didn't interact with anybody who prepared the food or brought the food out, I mean, that would be very odd, but I know we do have that in airports nowadays. So it is probably going to be a shift that we have to be intentional about in ways that we can be thankful.

Miyako Kamiya (43:33): Yeah, it's getting mainstream here. So every desk has like a QR code on the table and sometimes they, just so we don't even have a menu now, like we don't have a menu, just use a QR code. And then you order, you pay with a QR code and then not with the QR code, but you go to the menu, you pay and then they bring out the food. And then if it's busy, you end up walking out, not even thanking people. It's bizarre.

Kendra Chapman (44:00): Sure. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I've experienced that in an airport, but I couldn't imagine doing that in everyday restaurants, but I guess, you know, if convenience and staffing is going to be a thing, that will definitely change. So we need to be mindful of that. And this is somebody coming from, as a waitress and being in food service, I was always very aware when I would go to restaurants.

Unknown Speaker (44:24): You know, you always have people tipped well and all the things, but I know that can also be a cultural thing. Not every country does.

Miyako Kamiya (44:32): That's right. You do have that service culture and staff are very dependent on tips. I did a few years of hospitality and yeah.

Kendra Chapman (44:40): Wow. Okay. And, you know, we didn't really touch on this, but I would think also another thought, you know, you did, you mentioned it briefly about how in Japan the service is so, just intentional and they want to do their best to make sure that you, the customer, feel like you've been taken care of. And that's always been how I have been brought up and expected to do any role that I've had. It didn't matter what role I had.

Kendra Chapman (45:14): Anything from when I was a child, volunteering in a school situation or a church or whatever, to food service, to being a principal of a school. I was always just trying to do my best and serve. So I think that's also that icky guy. If you can do your best, I think you're going to feel like you're receiving the same, you know, the energy back from that person too. It's kinda how I think about it.

Miyako Kamiya (45:40): Yeah. There there's a word in Japanese called chanto, like chantosuru, which means to do things properly. Yeah. When my son was a toddler, wife would walk into the door when we had guests and she would say like, like greet out guests properly. And in Japan, you do things with Chanto.

Miyako Kamiya (46:02): You just do them properly. And it's not about trying to be perfect. There's usually just a proper way to do things. When you do things properly, yeah, creates this harmony and connection and energy. But almost anything you have to, it has a social impact either immediately or later.

Miyako Kamiya (46:23): If you don't clean up after yourself, someone else has to. If you're on, I mean in Japan, get on a train, other ones on their phone. Japanese is so aware if they have a backpack on a train, they shift it to their front so it won't knock other people. And then, I mean, time I was in Japan, there were quite a lot of tourists and they're all got their backpacks and they just don't know. And so you, they're sort of knocking other people in Japanese and you could sense this frustration with some Japanese, but you know, they hold that in and you don't hear anyone screaming or yelling at each other.

Miyako Kamiya (47:02): So there's also this awareness I should consider others that is instilled in them from a very young age. That's, I mean, it's generally a good thing. It can be a source of pressure that we just don't have in the West. Like as soon as we are on a train, we don't care. We're on our phones, want the seats.

Miyako Kamiya (47:20): If we're at a cafe, we could be having this debate, this lively debate and we're not aware, oh hang on, we could be disturbing others and we should keep it quiet. We're just not aware. So there is this awareness in Japan of others before me and I think in the West it's, I'm just being myself, you know? And that's why it's always nice to go to Japan because there is this calm despite being surrounded by millions of people.

Kendra Chapman (47:49): That is interesting. Yeah. It also kind of aligns with my upbringing in the Catholic church. We were very, we were made to be very conscious of other people before ourselves, but I mean, I digress. Anyway, it's just interesting.

Unknown Speaker (48:04): So, but that makes me think that it'll be a very, familiar culture if I ever go to Japan and experience that. So that'll be interesting to

Unknown Speaker (48:13): see. You should. I recommend you go, everyone should go for a trip.

Unknown Speaker (48:19): Well, Nick, I mean, no, it was a fast hour. We've discussed much around the icky guy concept philosophy, I guess you would say. So thank you for your time.

Miyako Kamiya (48:32): Thank you for inviting me as a guest and I know how much work goes into a podcast. So I really appreciate, the preparation and your thoughtful questions and all the work that you're going to do now to edit it and put it out there. So thank you very much. And I enjoyed the time we spent together.

Unknown Speaker (48:48): Same here. So I appreciate your time as well and take care across the world from where I am now. I appreciate your time getting up early. So thank you.

Unknown Speaker (48:58): My pleasure. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker (49:00): And while that's it for today's conversation, I just have to say one of the things that I loved most about this discussion with Nick is the reminder that icky guy isn't something that we have to chase or force. It's often something that we uncover slowly through curiosity, reflection, and the small choices that we make every day. And it can change. And it really aligns with the philosophy that we talk about here on Go Slow to Go Fast, that it's really about how the most powerful way to move forward is often slowing down first. So when we take this time to pause, reflect, and reconnect, begin to make more meaning, more balance, and more purpose in our lives.

Unknown Speaker (49:49): And that's really what going slow to go fast is all about. If you've enjoyed this conversation, I hope that you share this podcast with everybody you know who might need a little reminder about slowing down and check the show notes for how to get in touch with Nicholas and all of his resources and work. Until next time, remember that the light in me honors the light in you. And as you head into the rest of your week, let your light shine through. Go slow to go fast, and thanks for listening.

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